Elliot Coad: Weathering the Storm

0:02: I'm Roger Howe and this is the Nugget, where we're unearthing business gold for founders.

0:09: And I'm joined by founding director of ecology, Elliot, , who, you know, first of all can tell us, , a little bit about himself and what ecology is and how does it all work.

0:22: Lovely stuff.

0:23: Rog, thank you very much for inviting me to be here.

0:26: Yes, so Ecology, we started that in 2019, me and my wife, and then, and then a good friend at the time, and, , we were just thinking, what if, what if there was just this subscription service like you've got for Netflix or Spotify, but one that actually helped reverse climate change and, , using our skills.

0:44: We thought we'd give that a really good go.

0:46: And then, , around about a year or two later, we.

0:50: So that really worked better for our businesses and, , we've been having a hell of a ride ever since.

0:57: You know there's hundreds of projects that we're funding around the planet, , all sorts of climate solutions.

1:02: We love lots of trees.

1:03: We've got 80 million planted, or certainly funded at the moment.

1:08: And, , yeah, we've got quite a roster of 24,000 businesses, mostly in the UK to our name.

1:13: So, , we're pinching ourselves, you know, the impact has been incredible and, .

1:18: Yeah, it's been a ride of many journeys, I'm sure we'll go into it in a little bit.

1:23: It's a hell of a ride you've been on and I remember when we first met you guys were using one of our offices in in Bristol at the time and so we literally saw the inception of the business.

1:34: And now fast forward 5 years and as you said, funding 80+ million trees.

1:40: Can you just take us on.

1:41: That journey, you know, what are the big kind of milestones, what are the big kind of things that you had to overcome along the way?

1:47: It'd be great to hear kind of a a short history of the journey.

1:51: , first of all, it kind of.

1:53: It required maybe just that little extra ounce of confidence that I needed to rely on for someone else, but I, you know, I thought this is something really neat that I'd like to use and my wife did too and.

2:03: And then another person around me, , or some of our buddies, but there was this, there was this chap, Ash, and, , you might know him from Bristol days until Ash Phillips, and, , he, he helps other startups.

2:15: And what was brilliant about that conversation I had with him was that he just gave you that kind of that fizz, that excitement and like, yeah, you can do it.

2:24: There's nothing special about someone starting a business versus someone who's not, and, , got the passion, got some of the skills, and you should go for it.

2:32: And that was the most massive enabler.

2:34: I don't know whether I had the bottle to do it myself.

2:36: That was a real fantastic kind of like prod really.

2:40: Got things going.

2:41: , and then we started it with a kind of a, a community idea.

2:45: So we had this slack group, this kind of team communication channel, and we just invited anyone who liked the idea of the project just to kind of come, you know, hang out with us on there and we just asked them a few questions every now and again, and they started to become a bit of a volunteer army.

3:01: And that worked well, , but it's crazy, you know, if I think about when we were looking at getting a little bit of investment, maybe about 200,000 pounds, just to get us started.

3:13: And it was like, oh God, we need to be a financial forecast here.

3:16: And it was the very first time that I think we'd actually kind of worked out the numbers and it's like, I looked at them and I was just like, OK, so let's say we get 10 subscribers one month and then another 10 subscribers the next month, maybe 12 subscribers.

3:28: That's still like, when I've taken my margin away from, you know, the all the money that's going into the into the projects, it's like, , 25% per member per month.

3:38: It's like nothing.

3:39: It's like how are we gonna pay for our full-time salaries and.

3:43: That was interesting, you know, it was, you know, the major, it was such a major wall of practicality, , but we just, what I learned from that is that there's always a way around everything, , you know, different business models, different opportunities, and, , you know, just rethink, you know, there's many ways to skin skin a cat, as they say, unfavor and unlovingly.

4:07: And , yeah, we got our first bit of investment and then we were off.

4:12: But what we wanted to do with ecology was something different.

4:16: So I tried to offset my carbon footprint back in 2019 and the best, the best tools or the best ones out there on page one of Google, you know, there might seem like a little thumbnail image of like a project you're funding halfway around the halfway around the planet.

4:30: There might be like one paragraph about it.

4:32: And then you get a PDF at the end of it, it's just like, oh I just feel so uninspired, so unconnected from the impact that I'm making, , I was just like there must be a better way, and also the, there's so little transparency as well and.

4:47: You know, I, I thought maybe what I'm feeling is what the rest of the world is feeling, you know, uninspired, you know, kind of, I just unmotivated.

4:56: I wanted the kind of the, you know, the, the best sort of kind of gamification elements that you have, let's say in like Duolingo, , or whatever, you know, well, Roger, what else has been got great gamification that you'd really like.

5:09: , I've started using a, a whoop band and even that is .

5:14: Just, you know, it's just, even though it's very, very data-based, you're it's still basically gamifying your kind of exercise experience, isn't it, because you're like, oh, I got this score last time and that score and I have to recover and you know it really like prompts you just because you have all of that, that information back, so.

5:29: I guess it's transparency, isn't it, that that kind of encourages people to carry on.

5:34: Yeah, absolutely.

5:35: And we wanted that good stuff applied to the world of climate and so we did this kind of visualisation of your kind of virtual forest as you, as it comes to life, get to tap on you the virtual trees and then you see the place and the species and with some of our providers, you see the actual photo of that tree going in the ground that you've just funded.

5:54: , and so we were, we were just big on connecting you with the impact.

5:58: And then my wife slash co-founder, , is this amazing brand designer, and so, you know, she helped create this brand of integrity and probably kind of humanity.

6:09: We wanted to be the the.

6:10: Humans in the room when there was kind of corporate offsetting and the kind of the horrifying kind of history of cowboys and kind of low integrity projects, you know, we wanted to be a provider, that everyone else wants, you know, needed from the market.

6:27: And, , as long as we kind of waved that flag, you know, we were rewarded for it as we continue to scale up.

6:32: What, what would you say is your, was your biggest challenge along the way?

6:37: So I knew we had to be.

6:39: The best outwardly facing.

6:41: So, you know, I wanted ecology to be like the equivalent of B Corp certified for ethics, you know, I wanted to be, you know, as, as good as it possibly can get.

6:51: But internally I didn't know how to recruit for that and, , you know, finding A players, I didn't really know where the bar was.

7:00: I did in my technical, , experience from my background.

7:03: But what does an A player marketer look like or what does a a player kind of operations person or a head of people and, , you know, it's, it's through trial and error, , is what you eventually find from there and you know it's only over over years do you really get an understanding as to kind of what it takes to have that absolute star leadership team around you.

7:27: The negative impact of that.

7:29: Meant that all of a sudden, I didn't have entire trust in my leadership team.

7:34: And so I was kind of hovering around.

7:37: I, you know, I didn't want to be that person, but I was worried.

7:39: I didn't, I didn't know what to do other than like be around them and see if I could help, but that was just like a a noisy, , just, it was just getting in the way and, you know, I couldn't really see where the root cause would come from.

7:53: And so, yeah.

7:54: People and, , we were blessed with so many brilliant people.

7:58: , but boy oh boy, you know, on reflection, the CEO's role has has got to be mostly about just focusing on getting that killer, killer team in who's right for, for, for the right stage of the business.

8:10: Especially when you're going in fresh and you don't, that's a, a new skill that you have to learn along the way because no one can kind of teach you how to do that.

8:17: , but I mean, If you were to kind of pass on information to others, , on what things that you would have done differently or having a bit of knowledge going in when you're hiring that team, what are the mistakes that you would look to avoid the next time around?

8:36: It's still, it's still a difficult, it's still such a difficult challenge, you know, that interview process, I've found.

8:42: people who can be absolutely unbelievable during the interview process, to almost to the point where there's like at the panel at the end where they meet like 5 other people and there's almost like a standing ovation.

8:52: They haven't really stood up and clapped, but I can, you know, afterwards I catch up and I just, I love them, love them, love them, love them.

8:58: And then, you know, they go in for their, , their 3 months probation or whatever, and they go, oh, they really haven't quite hit the ground running, and then, you know, months 4 to 6, they're like, oh, we've made such a big mistake.

9:11: And, , I think that probably if I had that time machine, it'd be those who are important at the most senior levels within the 1st 3 months is where you need to spend so much time.

9:24: Any little mini little flax, anything.

9:28: Well, it's interesting that they said that.

9:30: , I wonder if there's, it's like, right, get on a call, find out if it's anything.

9:35: , and kind of 9 times out of 10, it, it, it was something, you know, that kind of little thing that popped up, you know, within week 3 or week 11, , just as the point of the probation kind of nipping over, , yeah, that, you know, using the probation really hard and really investing the time in it because we couldn't get the interview phase to really predict future, , future quality.

9:58: How about you, Rog, what have you?

10:00: Have you seen anything that you thought, you know, a little trick up your sleeve?

10:04: Yeah, that's it, it's, we actually changed our probation period to 6 months because, , we found that in 3 months we we didn't give us enough information to be really like 100% confident.

10:17: , and it's, it's depending on what's going on in, in our business, sometimes we'll have quiet spirits or busy periods, and if we'll hire someone in a, in a quieter period, we might not see them, you know, at their kind of peak capacity or, you know, dealing with lots of stuff that's happening.

10:34: So that's something that we did to just just extend that time and there's there's no, there's no right or wrong time frame, so you can have, you can set it to whatever you want.

10:42: So we thought, OK, well, there's nothing wrong with us just extending it for a little bit longer so that we really, you know, can make sure that that we've really kind of tested that person in lots of different scenarios.

10:52: But I mean, It doesn't matter how long a notice period is, it's, it's always very, very difficult to like lose someone, I guess, have you ever had to kind of fire someone from a position, whether that's a senior position or a lower position, and how, , how have you found that?

11:09: You know, I spent 5 years trying to to make that the most kind of human sort of process ever, , or that.

11:17: But no matter how hard I try, there would, there would almost be no way that I, I felt that the other person on the receiving end ever felt that that was just or fair, and, , you know, it was, it was always really, really tough and you know, I remember all, every single one of those difficult conversations where I've had to give bad news and.

11:39: You know, there's times when, you know, on the little, you know, slack message before they get onto the call, I said like just to let you know this is gonna be a difficult conversation.

11:48: Find a room where you're gonna be on your own, you know, you might need to take some time after it, trying to tell them as much as possible up here upfront that it's gonna be difficult.

11:57: And still the number.

11:57: Times where the receiving person had been so surprised and yeah, horrible.

12:03: So I definitely try and stamp out surprise as much as possible that it's just, you know, it's evil, and I just try and think about how I would feel on the on the receiving end.

12:12: Being a leader as well, you know, you, to a certain extent.

12:16: Do you become desensitised over time, and, you know, is that a good leader trait, you know, because should you be thinking objectively about your business at any given moment in time?

12:28: And, , you know, there's advantages of, of thinking with the heart, , as a leader, and there's some awesome advantages as well when you're thinking about moving forwards as, as a business too.

12:41: And so, That was a tight rope to to manage for sure.

12:44: Yeah.

12:45: One of the things I struggle with the most as well I think is, is knowing when you, you basically need to be able to turn on and off your emotional side.

12:55: And yeah, that's, that's definitely a skill that .

12:58: It's a really tough one, but you can't learn it any other way than, like you said, sort of becoming a little bit desensitised along the way, but you don't want to become completely desensitised because otherwise you, you'll turn into a psychopath boss and everyone will, you know, hate working there as well.

13:12: So you, you know, you don't want to push it that way.

13:14: But then if you're too soft and you're keeping people in the team or not changing things that need to be changed, then that can have a sort of slow and steady detrimental effect on the team, so.

13:26: I, I think there are two things are kind of short term and long term, isn't it?

13:30: As a leader, that kind of softness, I guess, you know, can get in the way of communicating very clearly of what needs to be said quite upfront and that kind of candour required is something I've for sure learned too.

13:46: And then also how do you switch off at, you know, in the evenings and weekends and.

13:50: You know, when you're trying not to think about what's just happened, delivering some bad news, no doubt.

13:55: And, , you know, it's been a year since I stepped away from being CEO at Ecology and, , really reflecting on, you know, how would I, how would I do this all again, you know, within just a few years, we had 85 people on our team plus maybe 15 contractors and, , it was such an explosive growth and you know, I think.

14:17: , you know, I, I've been, you know, probably read every book under the sun of, you know, burnout or like or teetering upon it and, you know, what to do and on reflection, after a good exercise regime just recently, , I realised what those little chapters or little bullet points in every one of the burnout books and coping as a leader are all about, you know, , finding exercise and, you know, looking after yourself and, you know.

14:44: , ironically I felt so kind of tired in the evenings, but really it was a, it was a lack of health and energy that I was able to kind of create within myself and, you know, my capacity to weather, you know, kind of problems now I was so different, , versus how I was when I didn't have, you know, when I wasn't really looking after myself and I I can imagine how that would have radiated out in.

15:09: The team as well, and, you know, that kind of time machine where I go, oh, wow, you know, if I'm in a great position and very healthy and full of energy, then I can expect my right hand team, right hand people to be able to, you know, inherit some of that goodness and, you know, trickle into everyone else too.

15:30: But, you know, I, I, I did, I did struggle with that, you know, to kind of go.

15:34: I just knew that there was something, there was a healthier leader out there for for ecology, and I, I wished I was that person, , but yeah, I'm out.

15:43: I, man, I really, really regret not, you know, just, not just going for a run in the morning or after a bad conversation or, you know, having that kind of.

15:52: Endorphin or, you know, kind of all the rest of the chemicals, the other good chemicals that your body naturally wants to produce, not just the kind of the adrenaline related ones and, you know, and, and all sorts.

16:03: So having a good chemical mix, , and a healthy mix, yeah, I, that would be a, something I would do in a heartbeat.

16:11: My new management plan from day one would be go for a run and then get back to your desk and then, , and then rock up for the day.

16:18: Yeah, that has transformed me in the last 6 months.

16:21: It's made major differences.

16:26: Along that, that whole kind of tumultuous journey, , to today, what, what would you say is the kind of lowest point of that journey then?

16:34: Was there a particular time you remember?

16:36: What would happen is me and my wife would just go for a walk in the morning and when we could, and, , we'd be chatting about like, what do we do?

16:44: You know, we were so attached to this, , but we can't see an alternative reality, not because of thinking about kind of personal finances, but because.

16:54: On a high growth trajectory, it's such a vulnerable position to leave the company or make big changes and it's just, it just felt so tied into it.

17:07: That was, those are the sorts of conversations that are low points, but then.

17:11: When you have the same conversation 3 months later, and then, you know, 6 months later and 12 months, you know, I almost had like a PTSD for being in that same position and it was just, , really, really it's like, oh, am I having this conversation again?

17:28: Are we still here?

17:29: We still don't know.

17:30: , but yeah, I mean, literally the lowest point, it's probably, oh God.

17:35: , just like asking my wife just like, could you just put your hand, it's like one Sunday morning.

17:40: I was like, just listen to my heart.

17:42: What's it doing?

17:43: She says, no, that doesn't, doesn't sound normal at all.

17:45: And I was like, in A&E, , you know, within, within half an hour or something.

17:50: And it's probably, I mean, heart's fine.

17:52: It's just kind of going nuts, , from just this kind of anxiety of everything, you know, so to such poor health and, , you know, not looking after myself and.

18:04: You know, and that's the sort of dice I think, you know, you roll in, , if, if you, if you're not looking after yourself.

18:11: And so, you know, I'm now running a, , advisory service for other founders and, , one of the kind of, you know, three key areas I, I help other climate, mostly climate, , startups with is, , is what it means to look after yourself and what the, how you.

18:28: how your team reaps the benefits when, when you do.

18:31: , so, you know, I can use that.

18:33: I can use that and, you know, I can, I can see in other founders, you know, the oncoming kind of war.

18:39: You know, I'm, my story isn't unique at all, and, , you know, it's, it's helpful to kind of get the word out and say it, say it like it is.

18:47: At the moment, there's a lot of talk isn't there about not working, you know, the ridiculous hours that were kind of advocated in the kind of 90s where it's just like, where, where work and that, that thinking is coming more into the fore of of, of, of people kind of looking after themselves and spending more time on their own personal health.

19:05: But then running a startup is pretty difficult to do that and you also have the other side of the, of the camp who are just saying, well, you can't get, get somewhere if you're not going to put in the work.

19:17: So it's such a challenge because you know, I've, I've been there as actually a couple of times with different businesses trying to grow them and just like living on, on a, on a shoestring, , just to kind of try and.

19:30: , not, not even just money wise, but also like you said, health and time wise, you know, just putting sort of everything you have into something.

19:37: You sort of do have to, you have to go through that to be able to then come out the other side and look back and be like, OK, that was crazy, like, let's not do that again.

19:46: But, , yeah, I don't know what the answer is, , and, and whether it's actually possible to grow like a very successful high growth startup with whilst keeping your work life balance in check.

19:57: You see a lot of, , a lot of businesses doing the 4 day working week and, you know, the number of times we've had that conversation at at the leadership level and going, God, I'm looking at the stats and the stats look good, you know, for the 4 day week in terms of the performance, but just honestly.

20:14: Just can't get there and you know, we weren't brave enough, you know, I, I did fly the flag for it, , but I also respected, you know, the rest of the board and our leadership team for saying, you know, it's complicated.

20:26: Interestingly, , we, we trialled a 9 day fortnight in the agency for.

20:31: , a little over a year I think it was, and we actually found that it made, made things more stressful rather than less stressful because the kind of premise of a, of a 4 day week is that, you know, you do the same amount of work in, but in 4 days rather than 5 days because when you have 4 days you're more efficient with your time.

20:52: , I think we were already being quite efficient with our time, so when we took away a day, it meant that we were just, , having to kind of fit in loads more work and.

21:00: It made especially Thursdays absolutely the most stressful days, it's like there's too much to do.

21:06: , so yeah, we, we actually, we actually went back to the 5 day week because we found that, , yeah, it just, , actually, actually made things more difficult.

21:15: , but yeah, I think it does depend on the company, , and, and, and the business model and how all of that stuff works because for an agency, , you know, our job is, is effectively, , kind of companies outsourcing work to us.

21:30: That we can be more efficient with and we run those processes very efficiently, but I can imagine for a larger company, where you have probably quite a lot of idle time for staff, , because the bigger the company gets, the more difficult it is to manage that time maybe.

21:45: So, you know, maybe with a larger company, it, it, it does make more sense.

21:50: , but yeah, yeah, that was our experience of it.

21:53: Yeah, yeah, totally understand.

21:55: I wanted to talk.

21:57: Briefly about about funding, , because that's obviously a big challenge that many founders have along the way and you guys, , had a pretty kind of successful time of it.

22:07: And I wondered, , if you could, , take us through, you know, what you guys did in order to get your rounds, what you found really worked successfully, you know, what were your kind of strategies and tactics that, , that helped you along the way.

22:22: Yes, so we had maybe like a pre-seed round, and then a seed round, and then a, a post-seed round.

22:29: And, , and then that took us, that takes us up to about now, really.

22:33: But that's about 10 million, , pounds in, in all.

22:37: And that's a lot of firepower.

22:39: And, , you know, that, I think about that, that first investor conversation I ever had and.

22:45: Just like a little schoolboy really turning up to, you know, a meeting just, you know, with, you know, my 12 slide deck that I kind of copied off Y Combinator and not really understanding what that meant, you know, and what, what role it played and what the investor was looking for, but you, you start, you know, you start the work, don't you?

23:03: You start learning and , you take that lucky break when you can get it, .

23:09: When you get those no's, I found that quite often they weren't looking to kind of give too much feedback, or the feedback would be heavily varnished in a way, it was a very positive way that was less kind of finger pointy and no one ever wanted to kind of burn any bridges or come across as from the investor's point of view.

23:29: They didn't want to come across as baby potentially being unfair because they hadn't kind of clocked it at the time.

23:35: But one thing I did find very useful was to ask for feedback after, you know, in an email and you know, just say you go almost like if I put a gun to your head, what are the kind of the three kind of harshest truths you found about our starter, kind of provoking them into, or creating a safe area for that ultimate candid feedback, , was good and boy did we learn a lot from that and you know, throw out the old deck and put in the new ones and.

24:03: , it was still, still tough, and I thought that, , doing something good for the planet would give us this kind of great shortcut to fundraising.

24:13: Go like, ah, brilliant, you know, you kind of front of the queue, you know, we're doing something really important because I, I think climate is, is the most important thing of.

24:22: The entirety of human history and surely there's a, you know, there's a, there's a social feel good factor of an investors doing this, but no, it didn't, it didn't happen.

24:32: And even with the impact investors, you know, they focused only on climate, it didn't count for anything, you know, the amount of impact we were having didn't count for anything.

24:40: It was just pure raw financial numbers and so.

24:43: You know, we were taken aback by that, and it makes sense, you know, the money has to be paid back, , but it just, you know, it wasn't part of the ESG portfolio, it was just like, no, it just, it was, but I it didn't, it didn't matter, it just didn't matter.

24:57: , you know, we took, , about 4 or 5 or 4 or 5 million pounds from, , General Catalyst and a few other kind of partners, and, you know, I know of them from the kind of Airbnbs and the Spotifys and the Monzos, and, you know, that was.

25:13: This kind of like incredible moment for ecology where we could go from like 20 odd people up to 70-ish, , at just such like a great speed and, you know, we really, really enjoyed that ride.

25:28: , but then what happened was strange.

25:31: You would.

25:33: After 18 months later, 24 months after it, we're trying to put our finger on exactly how ecology had evolved.

25:42: We started with these kind of like really big values list.

25:44: One of them is transparency, and we go, ah, do you know what?

25:47: I'm not even sure where you can really see all the transparency layers like we did when we first started and.

25:53: You know, what had become the focus was, you know, spend to grow and you know, I diluted what made us really unique and our USPs and our niche and our values and.

26:05: You know, it meant that in a way that we were playing in a similar way that other competitors were all of a sudden, which was not why we were growing in the first place, you know, and and speaking through with, , those companies I'm advising now, you know, other impact and startups.

26:21: I can see it's happened exactly to them.

26:23: They have this opportunity, this amazing opportunity to spend lots of money.

26:27: , but they put their values to one side and their USPs and to one side and, you know, they're kind of brilliant DNA to one side, and then they become unwittingly just a little bit more vanilla.

26:40: And, you know, I, I, I've seen it with so many different businesses now that, , I've really been taken aback with it and now try and raise the flag as much as possible.

26:51: For, , businesses and founders to be just so acutely aware that the money is to simply be in a, a catalyst of something that is already working in an organic way, , rather than being the money as the kind of the root solution.

27:07: And, , we had this epiphany moment about a year ago, and fortunately it wasn't too late, you know, we weren't able to kind of step onto the, , onto growth again.

27:16: And it's been so good to revisit that kind of heartland of, you know, why you're so passionate about the business in the first place.

27:25: I wanted to touch really briefly on a, a challenge that you guys had recently with a bit of a kind of PR storm, and you, you know, in, in your kind of, , values of transparency have been completely open about it on LinkedIn, which was amazingly commendable.

27:41: , and I wondered if you could just tell us a little bit about that and, and the challenge that you had and what it involved.

27:47: Absolutely, so maybe 2 years ago, , there was a, there was some research I was commissioned.

27:54: By university about these projects they're protecting parts of the Amazon rainforest and other other places kind of preventing deforestation and that analysis showed that these projects were worthless.

28:07: They, they weren't stemming, Overall, , global deforestation, and it meant that, , at that two years ago, it meant that The Guardian, the publication that I love, you know, had these kind of massive sweeping headlines, headlines to say that carbon offset projects are worthless, , when it comes to preventing deforestation.

28:28: You know, this is a huge part of of where ecology's money is going and it's a huge part of our vision, you know, there's there's no alternative to letting the Amazon burn or letting the kind of the greatest kind of nature places of nature kind of go to dust, and we, we knew there's no hope when you give up on those kind of important areas and.

28:48: , so this was a big moment.

28:49: Unfortunately, the, , the analysis has been kind of roundly debunked by experts, , across the board, but the damage was done at that point.

29:00: , and then two years later, of which we were taking some time to really recover from that, you know, that really hurt, lots of sustainability professionals read that piece.

29:09: And then about, what is it, maybe about a handful of months ago now, , that same piece of research kind of came up, but on BBC Panorama, which is essentially what I think of as kind of like crimewatch for corporates and, you know, ecology we're gonna be featured in it.

29:25: I couldn't believe it and .

29:28: I watched the documentary as it was aired with everyone else and waiting for kind of the the shit to hit the fan basically and it was a very strange documentary, but it did kind of, it was just a bit all over the shop.

29:42: And I thought, OK, you know, it's a bit, it's kind of pulling some low punches.

29:46: This is OK because these are the sorts of things that we've seen before and there's nothing new.

29:50: , they did talked about the research that had flaws and they didn't.

29:54: They didn't spend too much time on it, which was good.

29:57: And then right at the end, , was a secret undercover filming of our sales team.

30:03: I was like, ah, OK, here's our bit then.

30:05: And, , the undercover filming was of, , , some of the Panorama team going in as saying, you know, how could BBC, , be funding climate action, and our sales team were on camera.

30:18: , and this is the snippet that everyone saw.

30:21: The snippet was you can just reduce your carbon footprint by 1 tonne only, and then you can offset the rest, , with these carbon credits, and then you tick a big big box and then you're carbon neutral.

30:32: Unfortunately what no one else saw, , was actually that this is a prime example of what not to do anymore.

30:40: This is an example of the old carbon neutral standard, and then thankfully there's a much better standard, net zero standard, which ecology's been aligned with for years.

30:48: Anyway, so we were fabricated to be the butt of the joke, and I just was just in a stunned silence on just as a belief to see that that's happened, you know.

30:59: One, I love Guardian and The Guardian editorial in a newspaper and you know, seeing that headlines have been conjured out of really kind of weak evidence, you know, two years ago, that really rocked me.

31:11: , and then the other publication, BBC, and seeing this happen here too, and, but on another level where we were just totally, , totally the kind of the, the punch line right at the end of, of their fabrication and.

31:26: I, I just felt so destabilised.

31:29: I was just like, wow, these are, these are, these are my top two publications that I have, I think of high integrity and I, and I was there with the front row seat to to see that that's not true and you know, the the walls came crumbling down around me figuratively, , you know, I mean, a lot of our biggest customers, , you know, went on pause.

31:51: , we lost some, , and mercifully.

31:54: , you know, that kind of undercover filming kind of in a way wasn't, wasn't, was a way that we could connect with some of our biggest customers to say, like, we could easily, , demonstrate to them that that wasn't true.

32:09: , paradoxically, you know, we, we really strengthened some of our bonds or some of our partner network through it.

32:16: And you know, it was a major damage has for sure been done, but also really strengthened, , you know, some of those kind of collaborate collaborators that we've been working with for such a long time, but I was going like, I mean, of all the businesses in the world, you know, I, I think of like, you know, that was, that was my business, you know, literally doing it for the planet, not for profit whatsoever, and, and here we are, you know, giving more getting more airtime than a lot of the world's worst polluting companies and.

32:46: I just look over to my wife and it's just like, can you even believe this happened?

32:51: , but fortunately time is a great healer and we have really moved on mercifully and, , you know, we, we learned a lot about how do we, how do we, how do we how do we work harder to say that we are the most trustworthy, , human, , kind of providers of climate action in this space and.

33:11: It's, it's frustrating, but it's also kind of, it shows us the bar needs to be higher and carry on working.

33:17: We never doubted any of any of our projects, by the way, that are out in the world, but we need to be able to kind of demonstrate that more clearly.

33:25: So a hell of a ride, for sure.

33:28: You, you see it with lots of companies who are doing well and doing, , and, and, and being very vocal about trying to get other companies to do, to do better, , who, , are kind of held to a much higher standard than any other company who's just not saying anything about it.

33:45: , it makes me think of, , , we ran a panel event with Patagonia recently and, , one of the things they were saying on the panel was that.

33:55: They, , receive so much negativity from people around.

33:59: There's, there's certain products which are really, really difficult to make sustainable and they might have, I don't know, 90% of a jacket which is, , recyclable or from recycled materials and then 10% that isn't.

34:10: And then it's the 10% of people like, well, what are you doing?

34:12: We're using like.

34:14: Non-recyclable plastics or whatever it is, it's like, well, what about the 90% that is, you know, it's, it's, it's very ironic that they that they're the ones who are in the spotlight where it's like, well, what about this hunk company where 100% of what they're doing is bad.

34:27: , it's a, it's, it's a real challenge, isn't it, for those who are kind of like waving the flag, isn't it?

34:33: When Patagonia announced that their, their shareholder was 100% owned by the planet, you know, just total charitable, , company, , in terms of any profits that can be taken out and.

34:46: I just saw the headlines.

34:47: I initially saw, I know, I saw that, saw it pop up, you know, some brilliant sustainability people saying, oh my God, the best news, what a brilliant thing.

34:54: And then 6 hours later I saw the media headlines.

34:58: It's like I can't be seeing the same thing here, you know, it's just like billionaire founder finds way of like tunnelling money into, you know, his family or something and it's just like, oh my God, this, , you know, makes your blood boil, doesn't it?

35:14: So.

35:15: Yeah, no wonder there aren't many brilliant, just truly altruistic, kind of fantastic kind of heroes out there because it's not all of them survive.

35:25: The kind of the, , the pummeling that they get, , unbelievable.

35:30: And with all of this, , all of this, this challenge that we've had, , along the way, , you know, through the journey and through, , you know, the, the, these, , these recent kind of challenging events, from a kind of personal perspective, how do you think that running a company has changed you?

35:48: It's made me really aware of, of time and the preciousness of time where, you know, My daughter was 1 year old when I founded Ecology 5 years ago.

35:59: I reflect like how present was I, , you know, and how much, how much left over energy did I have for her, and, you know, I, I, there, you don't have the opportunities all the time just to kind of, you know, replay.

36:12: those, you know, replay those moments.

36:14: I'm glad that she's only 7 and not 18, and, you know, I, I just come out of this kind of whirlwind with, with, with, with working and she's just, I'm just dropping off at the university or something, you know, she's, it's not that, you know, she's 7 years old and I, , it that really sharpens the senses, , for me going like you.

36:35: That you have to, you have to find that balance.

36:37: It's so, so difficult at the time and, you know, through my kind of mentoring that I do with other founders, it's, , something that I really ensure that they are, you know, looking after their life's priorities and, , it means that you can do the, the marathon, not the sprint as well, you know, maybe you are totally infatuated in your work, but that's the marathon, that's a multi-decadeal.

37:00: , not sure what decadedal is the word, but it sounds good.

37:03: You know, that's a multi-decadal kind of initiative that you're pursuing hard and, you know, if you have those roots within you, , that you're really connected to your family and loved ones and your friends around you and, , you know, you don't, you don't, there's no time machine for that.

37:20: But there'll be other businesses, and so, you know, that's what I, that's what I really take out of that, you know, that has how has it how it's changed me and, you know, I, I feel like an extra.

37:29: Extra awareness, almost like a heightened sensitivity now about time, and I think that's a good thing because maybe I could have slept walked into this, you know, for another decade or two.

37:40: And so I will be always thankful, , for, you know, when you go near the bottom, you, you, you're aware of it, aware of where the bottom is, you know, and, , that does, does stick with you for sure.

37:52: Well, with that and all of that great advice, , thank you so much for, , sharing and taking us through your journey and your challenges, and, , , , , there's huge amounts of value, advice, and experience that I, I think plenty of people are gonna take away from this conversation.

38:10: So thank you so much for your time, Elliot, and, , best of luck with everything in the future.

38:15: Roj, thank you.

38:16: I know we've been focusing on probably all of my darkest steps of the last 5 years, but it's been a hell of a ride and it's great to be able to share and potentially hopefully help a few others navigate off some of those rocks.